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Miscellaneous circuit design queries
#1
I have been sent the following list of things to answer:

Quote:I have doubt in these very basics one Kindly clarify.

a) Why these relays [WZR, GR, NR, TASR] made slow to release?
b) Why USR made slow to pick up?
c) Use and working of RDL?
d) TACL:For temporary approach control both berth track down and TACL shown parallel, Please explain the working?
e) Some times slow to release made external by adding
capacitor,resistor [DJR] with slow to release relay but for WZR, GR, NR, TASR only slow to release relay alone shown.why?
f) What is the slow to release timing of BR 934 relay?
g) ECR: - if green lamp fuses, yellow lamp lits automatically - why there is no provision in signal wiring circuit for this?
h) Please explain direct fed indirect fed?
j) Purpose of booster transformer?
k) Why TPR relay made slow to pick up in DC & AC traction area?
l) Purpose of V(M) GO resistor in TPWS?
m) How to find relay spaces of different equipment while keeping in location case?
n) Please explain how to calculate the fuse rating?
p)Explain the working of train describer?
q) Explain tollerton control?
r) Please explain why FB24 supply given to the RGKE indication?
s) What is the maximum distance of cable allowed while transferring the function from one location to other?

a) The simplistic answer is for the specific circuit to work; the precise rationale depends on the actual case. Generally however there is a need for there to be a short period of time during which something else is given the chance to change state- it takes time for a relay to change from breaking its back contacts to making its front contacts. If you actually understand the logic of how a particular circuit works, then you ought to be able to work out the precise reason for yourself. Hence I'll only give you an example: The TASR picks up when the first and second tracks beyond a signal are simultaneously occupied; a feed is given to the ALSR when the first track becomes clear. The memory of the simultaneous occupation must be destroyed so that it is not stored indefinitely and therefore a back contact of the ALSR is included within the TASR circuit. Therefore we have a front contact of the TASR trying to pick the ALSR but as soon as it starts to do so braking of the back contacts of the ALSR would then destroy the TASR condition before the ALSR had had time to make its front contacts and thus stick up. However by making the TASR slow to release then there is enough time for the ALSR to become fully energised and thus establish its alternative feed by the time that the TASR front contacts are broken.

See also http://www.irseexam.co.uk/showthread.php?tid=304

b) This is to give a small degree of protection against the loss of train shunt on a track circuit. There is generally a slow to pick TPR following the TR and then a slow to pick USR so that there are two delays- this means that a brief track "bob" doesn't result in the USR and thus all the route locking in front of the train being lost. This gives something like 1 second's protection; for places where Automatic Route Setting is provided then SSI includes a much enhanced "track bob protection"- it maintains the locking for 15 seconds in the event of a train "disappearing"

c) RDL= Route Disconnection Link. A simple way that a technician can ensure that the signal is held to danger for that particular route. The use may be to provide protection to staff working on the line (personnel safety) or when signalling alterations are being undertaken / there has been an alleged signalling irregularity which hasn't yet been fully investigated (system safety)

d) With the Temporary Approach Control Link inserted (which it normally is) then the contact of the berth track has no effect and signal clears normally; when it is withdrawn then approach release is imposed. In reality this facility is very rarely used- it can be potentially useful if there is a need to keep traffic moving at slow speed through the area (e.g. if alteration work on the signalling system has taken too long for all the required testing to be completed within the possession time- there is no need to have tested aspect sequence or approach locking look-back etc) and sometimes associated with imposing temporary speed restrictions.

e) Capacitors can give much longer delays than can be achieved by design of the magnetic circuit within the relay. However such slugging can not be relied upon in safety critical functions- the capacitor over time is likely to gradually lose capacitance or it might fail completely or become disconnected and the relay would then suddenly become normal acting. Need to evaluate what would be the effect on the circuit (and indeed the signalling system within which it is included) should this happen. Generally a capacitor slug will be for a period of a few seconds whereas slow to release relays only give delays of less than a second- generally just used to give a chance for other relays to change state rather than give a "functional" delay. The DJR gives the "time-out" function needed when using push-push panel for route setting and need to allow the signaller quite a few seconds to select the route exit after having selected the entrance; hence clear why we need a capacitor for this one. Also be aware that slow operating relays have less contacts available than normal acting relays (because of physical space issues and because the magnetism created by the current in the relay coil being deployed to do other things than just pull the armature).

f) Off the top of my head I do not know, but it is about 0.5 seconds. However I do know that some manufacturer
PJW
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#2
I have been further asked:
Please clarify the following:

1.Why 1st TPR [DC track circuit] and USR'S made slow to pick up?
2.Why UKR made neutral relay?
3.To make the relay slow to release what is purpose of diode?
4.Why WZR made slow to release?
5.In NZLPR/RZLPR circuit: Purpose of WZR contact parallel with NLR/RLR contact?
6.Is there any typical circuit to give flashing indication for the following action:
. Point CR relay not picked up
. Once entrance button is pressed
7.Magnetic shunt (with CU slug) making the relay to achieve AC immunized and slow to pick up function, Please explain the working?
8.what is the advantage of giving the supply to relay front/back contact? [But in indian railway circuit the supply will be given to arm contact]
9.In (S)R and (D)R circuit, what is the purpose of forward biased diode?
10.Please explain how the relay is working as Slow to pick up When we connect the reverse biased diode across the relay?
11.Explain the working principle [With circuitry] of TD & override ?
12.DC Track circuit: [In india]
Relay terminal voltage is not more than 300% of Pick up voltage
After train shunt,
Relay terminal voltage should be less than 85% of drop away voltage
what is the parameter for the same in UK railway and how it is achieved in TFU?
PJW
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#3
[/quote]
1.Why 1st TPR [DC track circuit] and USR'S made slow to pick up?
[/quote]
Believe I have answered this in b and k of first post
Quote:2.Why UKR made neutral relay?

Sounds like relay puely to drive route lights on a panel- why shouldn't be neutral relay- this is the dafault unless there is a reason for it not to be
Quote:
3.To make the relay slow to release what is purpose of diode?

As per Peter's answer re back emf for AWS; it provides a path for the current to decay slowly and whilst so doing it maintains some magnetic effect in the relay coil thus delaying the time when the force of the spring overcomes it
Quote:
4.Why WZR made slow to release?

As I stated before, it is best that you have a go at working that out for yourself; you'll learn more by doing so than if I give you answer every time. As a hint, work on the basis that if it was fast acting then the circuit wouldn't work and the points could not respond to the operastion of the switch. Then consider what advantage making the WZR slower to release would give.
Quote:5.In NZLPR/RZLPR circuit: Purpose of WZR contact parallel with NLR/RLR contact?

Ask yourself what is the purpose of theNZLPR circuit by investigating in what circuits its contacts are used and this should give you your answer
Quote:
6.Is there any typical circuit to give flashing indication for the following action:
. Point CR relay not picked up
. Once entrance button is pressed

Indeed the centre light associated with a points control switch generally does flash when neither of the Normal or Reverse lights are illuminated, so I expect that such a circuit is shown in the typicals; pretty basic though so doesn't take much working out anyway!
Similarly whilst the (S)R = start relay for a signal is energised and the push button ring is looking for another button to be pressed as an exit then the fist button light is to flash.
Quote:
7.Magnetic shunt (with CU slug) making the relay to achieve AC immunized and slow to pick up function, Please explain the working?

Basically whereas an electrical circuit has components witi it of different resistance, the magnetic circuit has components of different reluctance. The ac component of the incoming voltage induces eddy currents within the copper which is a good conductor and this opposes tosome extent the build up of magnetic flux across the airgap and instead provides an alternative path for the magnetic flux to divert it away.
Quote:
8.what is the advantage of giving the supply to relay front/back contact? [But in indian railway circuit the supply will be given to arm contact]
[quote]
Generally signalling relays do not utilise changeover contacts but have an arm and either a front or a back. Where carbon-metal contacts are in use then putting the positive to the carbon (and therefore the front of a F-A pair) and the negative to the metal is supposed to discourage the deteriration of the carbon contact material. However the Western Region historically fused the negative of the circuit and still wired the supply to the contact rather than the arm; I know of no evidence that in practice it hasmade any difference to contact life, although I stand to be corrected. I believe in India that whereas British style relays are used, so too are Geran ones with metal-metal contacts which presumably this is not a consideration. Also where changeover contacts are used it is often needed for circuit reasons to put the supply from the fuse to the common arm contact.

Quote:
9.In (S)R and (D)R circuit, what is the purpose of forward biased diode?

I haven't ready acess to the circuits; I guess that it might be a means of preventing a backfeed. Use of diodes in this manner is not permissible for vital circuits, but it would be ok in a push-button ring and may be more economical than using more contacts as an altenative means of avoiding backfeed.
Quote:
10.Please explain how the relay is working as Slow to pick up When we connect the reverse biased diode across the relay?

I don't think that this would make it slow to pick up; give me a hint what made you ask this.
Quote:
11.Explain the working principle [With circuitry] of TD & override ?

These are far too big a subject to give answer here.
I don't believe that new TDs have utilised relay circuitry in the UK for at least 40 years; they became an early application of electonics and hav been computer based for at least 20 years.
Overrides also are very much a thing of the past as the reduction in price of transmission systems means that it is invariably cheaper and better to duplicate these rather than provide an override system. They also tended to be quite bespoke for each particular signalbox, reflecting the technologhy available to achieve, the design of the usual interlocking and the operational requirement.
Quote:
12.DC Track circuit: [In india]
Relay terminal voltage is not more than 300% of Pick up voltage
After train shunt,
Relay terminal voltage should be less than 85% of drop away voltage
what is the parameter for the same in UK railway and how it is achieved in TFU?
I am not sure how these compare, but I doubt whether they are very much different as the same laws of physics apply, although the environment may differ slightly (e.g. considerations of heat dissipation may depend a bit on ambient temperature). The actual voltages are not regarded as important as the currents (to which of course they are related) and when setting up a track it is the pick up and drop away shunt values achieved that are the dominant consideration.
PJW
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#4
Quote:Thank you for giving me the quick answers,

I still have doubt in following:

-- NZLPR/RZLPR CIRCUIT:
*Providing only WZR contact is enough (to prove point is free to operate) for picking the relay
*what is the need of providing NLR/RLR contact?

-- Why WZR made slow to release?
11600: To prevent preselection
please explain

Indeed WZR proves points free to operate; however the functionality required is "points already correct or free to operate into that position". Imagine a crossover on a double track line, with a route set over tha A end normal. The points are therefore locked normal, but you'd still want to be able to set a route over the B end normal for the opposite direction, wouldn't you?

WZR is energised by point key in its centre position. Turning point key to Reverse needs to throw down the NLR and pick up the RLR- it needs to do this whilst the WZR is still making its front contacts; hence the WZR needs to remain up for a short period after the centre contact of the point switch has become open circuit, therefore made slow to release. Hence the call is effective only if the point switch has recently been in the centre position . Therefore if turned Reverrse at a time when the points weere locked, say track circuit over them occupied, then they would obviously not respond at that moment, but the WZR functionality also stops them responding 5 minutes later when the track circuit beomes clear. If they were permitted to move then they would seem to have operated "by themselves"- the call to Reverse would have been stored due to the switch position and we'd say that they had been subject to "pre-selection". The WZR stops this from occuring; hence "anti-pre-selection".
PJW
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#5
Dear Sir,

1.Please explain the working principle of train describer:
How unique train number is identified by TD?
2.Is it SSI only having SPAD Alarm or RRI also?
Explain how SPAD Alarm system is working?

-Sugavanam
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#6
(14-04-2010, 02:20 PM)sugavanam nagarajan Wrote: Dear Sir,

1.Please explain the working principle of train describer:
How unique train number is identified by TD?

-Sugavanam

The train describer was originally a means of communication between adjacent signalboxes. When signalling was semaphore and absolute block, trains were offered from one signalbox to another by bell code: "Is line clear for an express passenger train?" or "Is line clear for a unfitted freight train?". However sometimes it was important for routing information also to be transferred, so there were some site specific codes to tell the next signaller which way the next train was to be routed at the diverging junction under their control.

At the busy station, as technology developed, this information was later transmitted from the adjacent box by electro-mechanical means; often a clock face with a pointer that rotated around by clockwork to indicate one of many descriptions to act as a visual reminder of the type and destination of the train which was approaching the area. These were the first "Train Describers".

Then as signalboxes grew to control a larger area (generally some form of power operation) there could be multiple trains on the same line within that signalbox control area and therefore some aid to the signaller was needed to remind them which train was which. Hence the train desciber developed into a "stepping TD" so that a code was entered (or indeed actually transmitted before the train's arrival from the previous signalbox) to a "berth" at the fringe of the signalbox area.

When the train occupied the first track circuit, the description steps from a "train approaching" display into another display associated with the first stop signal. Then when the train arrives at and then passes that signal, the TD then jumps to the following signal (if there are diverging points then the one is selected according to the point lie) and so on until the end of the signalbox area. Hence the description moves around a panle (or VDU screen) mimicking the movement of the real train on the track circuits.

The cform of the code used in the UK to identify each train is generally of the form of 4 characters:"number", "letter", "number", "number". The first says something about the "class" of the train; for example "1" is the (historically) the most important being the fastest (i.e express passenger train) and "9" for those freight train that had to go slowly because of the type of wagons used and the lack of brakes; in recent years this distinction has changed and "class 9" has been reallocated to be Eurostar and the NR track access rules are not based on train speed so the historic situation is no longer true but it gives the idea.
The letter gives a clue to the destination of the train, but this does vary around the country; on the Western "A" was for London Paddington to the West of England (=Devon and Cornwall to Penzance), "B" for Bristol via Bath and "C" for Cardiff and onwarsds into South Wales etc.
The last two digits was a sequential number identifying the train, but with even numbers being used for the one direction and even numbers for the opposite; so the train following 1A36 would probably be 1A38; it may not have exactly the same calling pattern but it would be following the same route towards final destination.
4 charater TDs can't always be 100% unique witrhin the working day, but obviously it is intended to avoid two trains running simultaneously with the same TD identification number since that would lead to confusion. The Europeans tendd to use a 6 digit (all number) type description- but I don't know the details of allocation but I suspect that these are unique to every train on the network but without the "intrinsic meaning" of the UK system.

TDs are what are used to give the correct information to the passenger and railway staff re train running; nowadays this TD information is not only available in signalboxes but to many rail staff and indeed indirectly to the public whether they are at stations looking at train departure / arrival screens or indeed using the internet to check that their train is running on time and has not been heavily delayed or even cancelled. This is achieved by a system called SMART that interfaces the TDs from all the signalboxes to another system called TRUST. See for example my local station train departure board info which is updated nearly in real time.

TDs are also important when there is CSR= Cab Secure Radio. If the signaller wants to talk to a specific train driver then they enter the relevant TD into the system. This identification code is used to determine where the relevant train is (i.e which signal it is next approaching) and this in turn is used to determince what radio channel was allocated to that train when it enteed the area covered by a rado base station. This enables the system to route the call to the cab of the correct train.

Quote:2.Is it SSI only having SPAD Alarm or RRI also?
Explain how SPAD Alarm system is working?
Good question; generally it is provided on IECC and other VDU based control systems and yes these generally are equipped with SSI or some other computer based ignalling system. I believe that the current standards require SPAD alarms on panels and RRI, although I can't recall ever having seen one implemented on RRI (but suspect that there may be one somewhere). Certainly at my local siganlbox (1960s RRI and panel) there is no SPAD alarm as such, but changes in recent years has implemented aspect reversion following a SPAD on certain signals.

Basically the system looks for a sequence of track circuit occupancy (e.g. berth TC occupied then stick track occupied) that suggests that a train has passed the signal at the time when the signal not showing a proceed aspect. The track indication on the VDU screen is given a yellow background and a distinctive audible alarm is given until it is acknowledged and also a text message appears which states at which signal a SPAD has been detected. The signaller than needs to take the appropriate action to address the risk.

These have only been provided for the last 10 years approximately (following accidents such as Southall and Ladbroke Grove); practically no new panels have been commissioned during that time. Basingstoke doesspring to mind and I don't think there is anything on the panel fascia itself; I suspect that some variant must be incorporated into the overall TD system so I guess there is a specific monitor that lists any SPAD alarms possibly with a representation of the layout to be able to mark the location.

Indeed for a long time a TD had the feature of an NDA = Non Described Alarm, which is really the forerunner of the SPAD alarm. If the track beyond a signal becomes occupied, the TD would normally step the description it held for that signal into the following one; if there is no TD at that time for it to step it generates a special one and sounds an alarm to the signaller to draw attention to the situation.

Historically this I suppose was a sort of development of the TRA = Train Running Away buzzer. When a mechanical box was extended to include a colour light signal to provide an additional block section (or more usually to replace the adjacent signalbox so money could be saved by closing it), the "Intermediate Block Home" signal was always remote from the signalbox and operated by track circuits. Unlike the other section signals ithe signaller was much less aware of happenings in its vicinity. The TRA was provided so that if it were passed at danger the signaller got a buzzer and could then at least warn the adjacent signalbox by sending an emergency message on the block bell; it had to be assumed that there were now two trains within the block section and a collision might result........
PJW
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#7
(14-04-2010, 02:20 PM)sugavanam nagarajan Wrote: Dear Sir,

1.Please explain the working principle of train describer:
How unique train number is identified by TD?
2.Is it SSI only having SPAD Alarm or RRI also?
Explain how SPAD Alarm system is working?

-Sugavanam

The TD does not identify anything unique about the train number. It is merely a series of "addresses" in a memory into which train numbers, or "descriptions" can be entered. There is no sense checking of the data. You could have the same train description in every berth of a train describers memory and it would not bat an eyelid at you. In fact, during engineer's possessions, I have seen areas of the signaller's control panel where they have entered *T3* into every signal berth to remind them of the extent of the possession (T3 is the module of the UK rule book which covers engineers' possessions). What is "clever" about a TD is the fact that it will step the a given description from a specific berth into another one depending on the rules programmed into it and the routes that have been set so that a train description (whether entered correctly or not) will follow that train where ever it legitimately goes.

Both SSI and RRI can have SPAD alarms since SPAD alarms are a function of the display system and not the interlocking. I am not an expert, but they are effectively an extension of the fact that in the past, a TD would have given an alarm if a "step" occurred (ie a track became occupied) when no correct route had been set. Effectively it was saying "something should be in this berth but I don't know what because there was no route set for me to know where the train has come from". If you extend this functionality to highlight to the signaller which signal has the occupied berth, rather than just give an audible alarm to say this has happened somewhere on the panel, you have the basics of a SPAD alarm.
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#8
(14-04-2010, 02:20 PM)sugavanam nagarajan Wrote: Dear Sir,

1.Please explain the working principle of train describer:
How unique train number is identified by TD?
2.Is it SSI only having SPAD Alarm or RRI also?
Explain how SPAD Alarm system is working?

-Sugavanam

Since In have not been able to find much accessible information re Train Descibers and the like, I decided to raid my store of photographs to supplement the wordy descriptions by Peter and myself. They say pictures worth 1000 words (and they ought to be given the file size), so hopefully some will find these helpful


Attached Files
.pdf   Train Describer development in photos.pdf (Size: 1.81 MB / Downloads: 133)
PJW
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#9
g) ECR: - if green lamp fuses, yellow lamp lits automatically - why there is no provision in signal wiring circuit for this?
h) Please explain direct fed indirect fed?
j) Purpose of booster transformer?
k) Why TPR relay made slow to pick up in DC & AC traction area?
l) Purpose of V(M) GO resistor in TPWS?
m) How to find relay spaces of different equipment while keeping in location case?
n) Please explain how to calculate the fuse rating?
p)Explain the working of train describer?
q) Explain tollerton control?
r) Please explain why FB24 supply given to the RGKE indication?
s) What is the maximum distance of cable allowed while transferring the function from one location to other?
please answer the rest of the questions in the replay
Thanks PWJ
HEM
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