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Signal Spacing and headway calculation
#1
Hi Signalling Professional:

I have questions regarding the calculation for signal spacing and headway and I would like to correct myself if I am wrong.

Situation:
Line speed is 100km/h, max train speed is 120km/h, required headway 3min

My question is which speed of the above do I use for calculating the signal spacing and headway.

My understanding is that:
a) when calculating the signal spacing use line speed 100km/h (that's the speed allowed to run the train normally)

b) when calculating what signalling system to be used for the railway system to suit the required headway uses the train speed (120km/h) that's the speed the train could possibly run on the line.

Maybe this is simple question, but am I right for this ?



thanks


Reply
#2
(14-11-2011, 03:14 PM)onestrangeday Wrote: Hi Signalling Professional:

I have questions regarding the calculation for signal spacing and headway and I would like to correct myself if I am wrong.

Situation:
Line speed is 100km/h, max train speed is 120km/h, required headway 3min

My question is which speed of the above do I use for calculating the signal spacing and headway.

My understanding is that:
a) when calculating the signal spacing use line speed 100km/h (that's the speed allowed to run the train normally)

b) when calculating what signalling system to be used for the railway system to suit the required headway uses the train speed (120km/h) that's the speed the train could possibly run on the line.

Maybe this is simple question, but am I right for this ?

thanks

No, exactly the wrong way round!

The minimum signal spacing (equivalent to braking distance for three aspect) is governed by the distance a train needs to stop when it is travelling as fast as it can - max linespeed.

The speed that is used for validation of the headway is usually taken as a speed lower than the max linespeed since not all trains will always be travelling at linespeed at all times. If the train out performs that (ie does manage to travel at linespeed), then it is out of the way quicker so will not impact on the following train.

Reply
#3
Hi Peter:

thanks for your correction.
So as the situation described, I should use max train speed 120km/h for signal spacing calculation, and use max line speed 100km/h for headway calculation.
Correct ?

One more question is that as for my company railway network, there are vitually no lineside signals at all as we use ATC system (ATP) for train control. I am wondering how the headway is calculated ???? since there are no Yellow or double yellow aspect...... in route signalling perspective there is only RED & GREEN aspect !!!
So I think aspect sequence diagram is no longer applicable. Am I correct ?

So do you know how the headway is calculated for a railway network that only use ATP system ?







(14-11-2011, 05:19 PM)Peter Wrote:
(14-11-2011, 03:14 PM)onestrangeday Wrote: Hi Signalling Professional:

I have questions regarding the calculation for signal spacing and headway and I would like to correct myself if I am wrong.

Situation:
Line speed is 100km/h, max train speed is 120km/h, required headway 3min

My question is which speed of the above do I use for calculating the signal spacing and headway.

My understanding is that:
a) when calculating the signal spacing use line speed 100km/h (that's the speed allowed to run the train normally)

b) when calculating what signalling system to be used for the railway system to suit the required headway uses the train speed (120km/h) that's the speed the train could possibly run on the line.

Maybe this is simple question, but am I right for this ?

thanks

No, exactly the wrong way round!

The minimum signal spacing (equivalent to braking distance for three aspect) is governed by the distance a train needs to stop when it is travelling as fast as it can - max linespeed.

The speed that is used for validation of the headway is usually taken as a speed lower than the max linespeed since not all trains will always be travelling at linespeed at all times. If the train out performs that (ie does manage to travel at linespeed), then it is out of the way quicker so will not impact on the following train.

Reply
#4
Headway means the same thing inn essence; how soon a secnd train can follow the first. Railways using ATC tend to be those for which the important thing is "stopping headway" or even mor important "platform re-occupation times". In detail it is very much a question of modelling via computer simulation.
You don't say but I am guessing that you are assuming a "moving block" system where
a) the track is not divided up into separate train detection sections (or if it is then these divisions are not used for determining following train separartion)
b) the trains themselves know where they are, usually pretty precisely
c) the decision of where a train should brake is not "built into" the design of the signalling system once-and-for-all, but calculated "on the fly" in real time, depending on where the train ahead is, the speed at which the following train is travelling, the gradient / speed profile, perhaps the weather conditions and train loading factor etc.


Hence the assessment is all about:
1) how accurately the position of the two trains is known (there is always an uncertainty which increases with the distance travelled from the last "absolute positio reference" - the train is considered to get longer (its "virtual occupancy" is increased to depict the "worst case" and is therefore always longer than its physical length)
2) how accurately the speed on train 2 is known
3) the various delays in the system (obviously any calculation using data from different sources has to acknowledge that the best available information is always somewhat out of date and therefore may have changed since)
4) how quickly the train itself will actually respond to a braking command,
5) tyhe required safety margin separation between the trains when the second approaches closely the first one.

The basic concept is that train 2 must always in the worst case be able to stop a small safety margin prior to hitting train 1. For maximum capacity, it should drive as fast as it can for as log as it can, until the very last minute when it decides that it really must start braking to avoid a collision. However this would not be good either for passenger comfort (very high "jerk rate") or indeed environmentally sensible use of energy, wear and tear etc so the ATO will "smooth" the driving and therefore ease off acceleration early, coast, apply brakes lightly to start with before braking more

There are a lot of calculations to do which is why computer modelling is needed; with a good signalling system the headway will be more dependent on issues of train performance than it would be the signalling.
It is primarily a matter of ensuring that the train position accuracy is good, there is low system latency (inerent time delays for cmmunications and processing etc.)

(15-11-2011, 04:36 AM)onestrangeday Wrote: Hi Peter:

One more question is that as for my company railway network, there are vitually no lineside signals at all as we use ATC system (ATP) for train control. I am wondering how the headway is calculated ???? since there are no Yellow or double yellow aspect...... in route signalling perspective there is only RED & GREEN aspect !!!
So I think aspect sequence diagram is no longer applicable. Am I correct ?

So do you know how the headway is calculated for a railway network that only use ATP system ?

PJW
Reply
#5
Hi PJW:

ok I see. I agree too that by using ATP or 'moving block' signalling system, the conventional way of calculating the headway is no longer applicable. Perhaps, there are so many factors that could affect the headway so it requires computer to do it for us, in the opposite, it is not only simpling plugging the numbers into the 2,3,4 aspect formula can obtain the answers.





(15-11-2011, 06:49 AM)PJW Wrote: Headway means the same thing in essence; how soon a second train can follow the first. Railways using ATC tend to be those for which the important thing is "stopping headway" or even mor important "platform re-occupation times". In detail it is very much a question of modelling via computer simulation.
You don't say but I am guessing that you are assuming a "moving block" system where
a) the track is not divided up into separate train detection sections (or if it is then these divisions are not used for determining following train separation)
b) the trains themselves know where they are, usually pretty precisely
c) the decision of where a train should brake is not "built into" the design of the signalling system once-and-for-all, but calculated "on the fly" in real time, depending on where the train ahead is, the speed at which the following train is travelling, the gradient / speed profile, perhaps the weather conditions and train loading factor etc.


Hence the assessment is all about:
1) how accurately the position of the two trains is known (there is always an uncertainty which increases with the distance travelled from the last "absolute positio reference" - the train is considered to get longer (its "virtual occupancy" is increased to depict the "worst case" and is therefore always longer than its physical length)
2) how accurately the speed on train 2 is known
3) the various delays in the system (obviously any calculation using data from different sources has to acknowledge that the best available information is always somewhat out of date and therefore may have changed since)
4) how quickly the train itself will actually respond to a braking command,
5) tyhe required safety margin separation between the trains when the second approaches closely the first one.

The basic concept is that train 2 must always in the worst case be able to stop a small safety margin prior to hitting train 1. For maximum capacity, it should drive as fast as it can for as log as it can, until the very last minute when it decides that it really must start braking to avoid a collision. However this would not be good either for passenger comfort (very high "jerk rate") or indeed environmentally sensible use of energy, wear and tear etc so the ATO will "smooth" the driving and therefore ease off acceleration early, coast, apply brakes lightly to start with before braking more

There are a lot of calculations to do which is why computer modelling is needed; with a good signalling system the headway will be more dependent on issues of train performance than it would be the signalling.
It is primarily a matter of ensuring that the train position accuracy is good, there is low system latency (inerent time delays for cmmunications and processing etc.)

(15-11-2011, 04:36 AM)onestrangeday Wrote: Hi Peter:

One more question is that as for my company railway network, there are vitually no lineside signals at all as we use ATC system (ATP) for train control. I am wondering how the headway is calculated ???? since there are no Yellow or double yellow aspect...... in route signalling perspective there is only RED & GREEN aspect !!!
So I think aspect sequence diagram is no longer applicable. Am I correct ?

So do you know how the headway is calculated for a railway network that only use ATP system ?

Reply
#6
In case you are still confused by this subject, I shall try to answer more simply:

1. Calculate the signal spacing using the maximum permissible speed [see note # below] to determine the braking distance needed.

2. Calculate the headway using the timetabled speed (where that is lower).

Note #.
The train type may perhaps be physically able to travel faster than the "linespeed", but since this is not permitted at the relevant site then the maximum speed of the train itself is irrelevant.

However if a train is not capable and/or permitted to travel as fast as the line would allow other traffic to operate, then when calculating braking distance for that particular type of rolling stock, you then use the lower maximum speed of the rolling stock (the nominal "linespeed" in this case is irrelevant for this train type).

This permits a line to be signalled for 125mph trains with good braking but also utilised by trains having worse braking but that are limited to 100mph. This is OK provided that they can stop from 100mph in the same distance that a 125mph train takes to stop from that higher speed.

The choice of signalling system for the line must cater with the constraints from all the traffic types; it must deliver the stopping headway for slow trains, the non-stopping headway for the express trains and be safe for all types of traffic for the maximum speed at which they are permitted (taking into account both the line and the rolling stock constraints).

Hope this clarifies.







(14-11-2011, 03:14 PM)onestrangeday Wrote: Hi Signalling Professional:

I have questions regarding the calculation for signal spacing and headway and I would like to correct myself if I am wrong.

Situation:
Line speed is 100km/h, max train speed is 120km/h, required headway 3min

My question is which speed of the above do I use for calculating the signal spacing and headway.

My understanding is that:
a) when calculating the signal spacing use line speed 100km/h (that's the speed allowed to run the train normally)

b) when calculating what signalling system to be used for the railway system to suit the required headway uses the train speed (120km/h) that's the speed the train could possibly run on the line.

Maybe this is simple question, but am I right for this ?



thanks

PJW
Reply
#7
Hi PJW:

thanks for your reply and explanation. I understand what you have wrote.



(05-12-2011, 02:20 PM)PJW Wrote: In case you are still confused by this subject, I shall try to answer more simply:

1. Calculate the signal spacing using the maximum permissible speed [see note # below] to determine the braking distance needed.

2. Calculate the headway using the timetabled speed (where that is lower).

Note #.
The train type may perhaps be physically able to travel faster than the "linespeed", but since this is not permitted at the relevant site then the maximum speed of the train itself is irrelevant.

However if a train is not capable and/or permitted to travel as fast as the line would allow other traffic to operate, then when calculating braking distance for that particular type of rolling stock, you then use the lower maximum speed of the rolling stock (the nominal "linespeed" in this case is irrelevant for this train type).

This permits a line to be signalled for 125mph trains with good braking but also utilised by trains having worse braking but that are limited to 100mph. This is OK provided that they can stop from 100mph in the same distance that a 125mph train takes to stop from that higher speed.

The choice of signalling system for the line must cater with the constraints from all the traffic types; it must deliver the stopping headway for slow trains, the non-stopping headway for the express trains and be safe for all types of traffic for the maximum speed at which they are permitted (taking into account both the line and the rolling stock constraints).

Hope this clarifies.







(14-11-2011, 03:14 PM)onestrangeday Wrote: Hi Signalling Professional:

I have questions regarding the calculation for signal spacing and headway and I would like to correct myself if I am wrong.

Situation:
Line speed is 100km/h, max train speed is 120km/h, required headway 3min

My question is which speed of the above do I use for calculating the signal spacing and headway.

My understanding is that:
a) when calculating the signal spacing use line speed 100km/h (that's the speed allowed to run the train normally)

b) when calculating what signalling system to be used for the railway system to suit the required headway uses the train speed (120km/h) that's the speed the train could possibly run on the line.

Maybe this is simple question, but am I right for this ?



thanks

Reply


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